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 Post subject: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:23 am 
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http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/stop-ch ... 58&msite=w

Oil chemistry and engine technology have evolved tremendously in recent years, but you'd never know it from the quick-change behavior of American car owners. Driven by an outdated 3,000-mile oil change commandment, they are unnecessarily spending millions of dollars and spilling an ocean of contaminated waste oil.

Although the average car's oil change interval is around 7,800 miles — and as high as 20,000 miles in some cars — this wasteful cycle continues largely because the automotive service industry, while fully aware of the technological advances, continues to preach the 3,000-mile gospel as a way to keep the service bays busy. As a result, even the most cautious owners are dumping their engine oil twice as often as their service manuals recommend.

After interviews with oil experts, mechanics and automakers, one thing is clear: The 3,000-mile oil change is a myth that should be laid to rest. Failing to heed the service interval in your owner's manual wastes oil and money, while compounding the environmental impact of illicit waste-oil dumping.

Scared Into Needless Service
Part of the blame for this over-servicing lies in our insecurities about increasingly complicated engines that are all but inaccessible to the average driver. Pop open the hood of a modern car, and a mass of plastic covers wall off the engine. On some vehicles, the only thing an owner can easily access is the oil cap.
"Vehicles are so sophisticated that oil is one of the last things that customers can have a direct influence over," said Matt Snider, project engineer in GM's Fuels and Lubricants Group. "There's maybe some feeling that they're taking care of their vehicle if they change their oil more often."

The 3,000-mile myth is also promoted by the quick lube industry's "convenient reminder" windshield sticker. It is a surprisingly effective tool that prompts us to continue following a dictate that our fathers (or grandfathers) drummed into our heads: It's your duty to change your oil every 3,000 miles — or your car will pay the price. But as former service advisor David Langness put it, the 3,000-mile oil change is "a marketing tactic that dealers use to get you into the service bay on a regular basis. Unless you go to the drag strip on weekends, you don't need it."

Because busy car owners seldom read their owner's manuals, most have no idea of the actual oil change interval for their cars. And so they blindly follow the windshield reminder sticker, whether it's an accurate indicator of the need for an oil change or not. "I just go by the sticker in the windshield," one well-to-do, educated Denver Lexus owner said. "Otherwise, how would I know when to change it?"

A career Navy mechanic who bought an Edmunds.com long-term car just shrugged when he was told that the vehicle had safely gone 13,000 miles between oil changes. "I'll just keep changing the oil every 5,000 miles," he said. "It's worked well for me in the past."

Our oil change addiction also comes from the erroneous argument that nearly all cars should be serviced under the "severe" schedule found in the owner's manual. In fact, a quiz on the Web site maintained by Jiffy Lube International Inc. (owned by petrochemical giant Shell Oil Company) recommends the severe maintenance schedule for virtually every kind of driving pattern.

The argument that most people drive under severe conditions is losing its footing, however. A number of automakers, including Ford and GM, have contacted Edmunds data editors to request that the maintenance section of Edmunds' site substitute the normal maintenance schedule for the severe schedule that had been displayed.

About the only ones that really need a 3,000-mile oil change are the quick-lube outlets and dealership service departments. In their internal industry communications, they're frank about how oil changes bring in customers. "Many people...know when to have their oil changed but don't pay that much attention to it," said an article in the National Oil and Lube News online newsletter. "Take advantage of that by using a window sticker system [and] customers will be making their way back to you in a few short months."

Another National Oil and Lube News article tied the frequency of oil changes to success in pushing related products and services. For a midsize SUV, the stepped-up oil change intervals will bring in $1,800 over the life of the car, the article says. "A few extra services [or oil changes] can go a long way toward increasing the amount of money a customer will spend during the lifespan we estimated here," the article concludes.

Today's Oil Goes the Distance
While the car-servicing industry is clear about its reasons for believing in the 3,000-mile oil change, customers cling to it only because they're largely unaware of advances in automotive technology. Among 2010 models, the average recommended oil change interval, based on a normal service schedule, is about 7,800 miles — more than double the traditional 3,000-mile interval. The longest oil change interval is 20,000 miles, for all Porsches. The shortest oil change interval is 5,000 miles in some late-model Toyotas, but the carmaker has begun shifting its fleet to 10,000-mile oil change intervals using synthetic oil.

"Oil has changed quite a bit and most of that isn't transparent to the average consuming public," said Robert Sutherland, principal scientist at Pennzoil Passenger Car Engine Lubricants. Synthetic oils, such as the popular Mobil 1, are stretching oil change intervals, leaving the 3,000-mile mark in the dust. "The great majority of new vehicles today have a recommended oil change interval greater than 3,000 miles," said Mobil spokeswoman Kristen A. Hellmer. The company's most advanced synthetic product (Mobil 1 Extended Performance) is guaranteed for 15,000 miles.

Today's longer oil change intervals are due to:
• Improved "robustness" of today's oils, with their ability to protect engines from wear and heat and still deliver good fuel economy with low emissions
• Tighter tolerances (the gap between metal moving parts) of modern engines
• The introduction of oil life monitoring systems, which notify the driver when an oil change is required and are based on the way the car is driven and the conditions it encounters
For 2010 vehicles, 14 of 35 carmakers are now using oil life monitoring systems. One GM car driven by Edmunds went 13,000 miles before the monitoring system indicated the need for an oil change. We sent a sample of that oil to a lab for analysis. The results showed the oil could have safely delivered at least another 2,000 miles of service.
Oil experts and car manufacturers are solidly on the side of the less-frequent oil changes that these formulation changes make possible. "If customers always just stayed with the 3,000-mile recommendation, there'd be these great strides in the robustness of oil that oil companies have made [that] wouldn't be utilized," said GM's Matt Snider. Consumers, he said, would be "throwing away good oil."

Chris Risdon, a product education specialist for Toyota agreed, adding that oil technology advances that permit fewer changes are a tool to protect the environment. "If you're doing it half as much, that's 5 quarts of oil times 1.7 million vehicles a year — that's a tremendous amount of waste oil that's not being circulated into the environment."
Waste oil is a problem exacerbated by too-frequent oil changes, according to the California Integrated Waste Management Board, which has campaigned against the 3,000-mile dictate. The agency says that 153.5 million gallons of used oil is generated in California annually, but only 59 percent of it is recycled.

Our Fit Gets Taken for a Ride
To see what might happen to the average car owner, we took a 2007 Honda Fit to Jiffy Lube for an oil change. The car has an oil life monitoring system, and the system has recommended the past two oil change intervals at 5,500 miles and 7,600 miles on non-synthetic oil. In both cases, an engine oil analysis revealed that the oil could have provided at least another 2,000 miles of service.
On this occasion, we told the Jiffy Lube service advisor we were considering synthetic Mobil 1 because we heard it could extend our oil change intervals. The service advisor said the synthetic oil could enable the Fit to go 4,000 or 5,000 miles before the oil "burned out." The Mobil 1 oil change had a price tag of $92.39. The technician also took the opportunity to upsell us, recommending a cabin air filter for $49.99. The total for our visit, after a $15 coupon, was $132.72.

When the car was returned to us, the sticker in the window called for an oil change in 3,000 miles, not the 4,000 or 5,000 miles the service advisor had promised.
If we were foolish enough to follow Jiffy Lube's 3,000-mile change schedule (which is essentially the advice given by all quick oil change outlets and dealership service departments), the Fit would undergo four unnecessary oil changes per year (assuming 15,000 miles per year of driving), wasting $369 and 15.2 quarts of perfectly good oil. Over five years of the car's life and 60,000 miles of driving, this would amount to $1,847 and 125 quarts of wasted oil. This does not include other "upselling" items at each visit, such as cabin air filters.

Defending the 3,000-Mile Interval
The quick oil change industry justifies its perpetuation of the 3,000-mile standard by saying that most people drive under "severe" conditions. Jiffy Lube's quiz, mentioned earlier in this article, is one example of how that notion is reinforced in drivers' minds. An oil change company representative said the 3,000-mile recommendation is meant to be just that — a recommendation.

Scott Cudini, innovations manager for Jiffy Lube, repeatedly called the 3,000-mile interval a good "fallback position," meant to be a guideline but not a hard-and-fast rule. He added that Jiffy Lube technicians would initiate a "dialogue" with customers about the oil change intervals that apply specifically to their cars.

"In most cases," Cudini said, "even if customers' cars have been plastered with that 3,000-mile sticker, they may have been told by the service advisor that, 'By the way, Sir/Madam, your interval is 5,500 miles.'" Based on our experience at Jiffy Lube and other quick-change outlets, technicians rarely initiate dialogues that could provide accurate information about oil change intervals. In fact, according to a Jiffy Lube spokesperson, the system for supplying technicians with answers only gives them information from a vehicle's severe schedule.

The quick-change industry's deep fallback argument in favor of frequent oil changes is that they are a hedge against trouble. You can't hurt your engine by changing your oil too often, so doesn't that imply that it might actually help it? Well, no.

Steve Mazor, manager of American Automobile Association's Research Center, said that more-frequent-than-necessary oil changes will not "gain any additional life for your engine or any improved fuel economy." He added, "In reality it will make little or no difference to the performance of the vehicle."

The Right Time To Change Your Oil
So where does this leave the car owner who was raised on the perceived wisdom of the 3,000-mile oil change? For a full discussion, your next stop should be our related article, "When Should You Change Your Oil?," which will save you hundreds of dollars over the next few years and fully protect your car and its warranty, while limiting the use of a natural resource.

The short answer, meanwhile, is to consult your service manual or Edmunds' maintenance section to learn your car's actual oil change schedule. If your car has an oil life monitoring system, don't try to second-guess it. Understand how it works and follow its guidelines. To probe more deeply into this subject, consider sending a sample of the oil from your next oil change to a lab such as Blackstone Laboratories, for an inexpensive analysis. Our last suggestion? Rip that sticker off your windshield.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Wow good read! I have a toyota and it ha a 5K monitor and I follow it even though I use Mobile one. I even started going to 5K on my older F-150 using Mobile one.

One big trucks they can stretch oil up to 60K with a enhanced filter system and all they do is add oil as needed which saves them a ton of money on the overall sustainment. I know these oild can achieve 10K between oil changes although I haven't been able to get my arms around that just yet.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2013 11:52 pm 
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Excellent post !! Thanks for providing it.


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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:52 pm 
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I've read this write up somewhere, awhile ago, and I couldn't agree more. If anyone is interested, read this thread, it sheds a lot of light on the subject.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/20 ... -here.html


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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:54 pm 
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Excellent article! For many years I have been extremely proactive in changing the engine oil in all of our vehicles. For over 40 years I was an outside sales rep where I easily drove 25,000 miles a year on business. Since the early 80's when Jiffy Lube first appeared I had my oil changed every 3,000-4,000 miles which was almost once a month.

As oil technology improved and my cars and SUVs became more sophisticated I began to lengthen the time between oil changes to 6,000 to 7,500 miles. Now that I no longer use my car for business I find myself changing my oil only twice a year as I am only traveling about 10,000 miles a year.

My daughter has a Mini Cooper S and all of her maintenance is done under dealer warranty including oil changes. Her first oil change was at 17,000 miles!

I now use a synthetic blend motor oil in my Mustang and my wifes Hyundai Sonata. The oil industry has done a masterful job of brainwashing the public to change their cars oil every 3,000 miles over the past 30 years. Now that oil is so expensive I believe that people will take a look at increasing their mileage before changing their oil.

I remember reading over the years the sage advise of car care mechanics and authors drilling us into believing that changing your oil regularly was the one best thing you could do to protect your engine.

My uncle owned a Texaco station and I used to help out once in a while after school and in the summer in the 60's. I remember him tearing an engine apart because it had seized. The engine was so filled with varnish and gunk oil couldn't flow causing the engine to seize and stop running. Back then people were not into changing their oil but just adding some as the oil level dropped. Filters were not very good either and a lot of people used to change their oil filter every other oil change! They didn't realize that they were leaving a quart of dirty oil in their engines when they changed their oil. Seeing that engine left a lasting impression with me to be proactive and lean to more frequent rather than less frequent oil changes.

Another lesson learned during my youth was that every used car I bought usually leaked oil. I made myself a promise that when I finished college I would never buy another used car. If I could buy a car brand new and take care of it I would never have these problems. In all of the years that I owned new cars I never had an oil leak or burned oil despite putting on well over 100,000 miles plus on all of my business use cars including my 1980 Mustang.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:23 am 
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Midnight you know back years ago oil was so much different and even our engines were not as reliable for the bottom of the bath tub curve unlike todays engines. In my old stang I used valvoline because it drops clean and I don't find stuff in the bottom of my oil bucket when I clean it out.

since I was around jet engines like the TF-30 and F-404 and F-414 we used synthetic oil because of the pressures it could handle.
With todays oil it is about keeping you changes scheduled and for us guys I believe many of us are rigid that way and for the ladies they are sometimes more concerned on fashion and just knowing the car starts and oil changes are just a man's word. I have lived away from my home for close to 3 yeas and so I call when I think 5k is on the odometer and remind my misses about the oil. When I am home I insure I get the tires rotated and balanced and washed and polished and ready for the time I am away again.

good times.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Oil changing is a guessing game. I've used http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ in the past with good results. The Marauder gets new oil around 5K. I send a sample out every 3rd oil change....usually. The kits are free and self explanatory.


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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:00 pm 
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I did some checking of my maintenance records on my 2002 Mustang to see how far I went on my last oil change. I had had the oil changed on November 11, 2011. On September 12, 2012, while having a transmission service completed I had the oil changed again. I only had 4323 miles on that oil change which lasted 10 months.

I did not do a lot of driving in that time period due to the problems I was having with my back. As most of you know I had back surgery performed in July 2012.

When I asked Darrin at Hometown Auto Repair to change the oil along with the transmission service he called me back to the shop area to show me something. He then pulled out my dipstick which showed absolutely clean oil filled to the proper level. He told me that if I wanted I could hold off changing the oil for another 2,000 miles or so. It was just more convenient for me to have the oil changed at that time along with the automatic transmission service so I had it done at that time.

I have never been able to go that long without an oil change but it verified for me that the newer oils do a tremendous job of protecting our engines.

My previous vehicle was a 2002 Mitsubishi Montero Sport SUV. I had over 157,000 miles on it when I traded it in for a 2008 Mercury Mariner. Again that engine was extremely clean on the inside. At 120,000 miles I had to have a valve replaced. Because of the labor involved I also had a lot of routine maintenance done at the same time like a new water pump, new serpentine belt, etc. While the work was being done I had an opportunity to see the inside of valve train and the mechanics were all raving over how clean this engine was inside and out. I fully expected to drive this vehicle for 250,000 miles until the catalytic converters needed to be replaced. These were only available through Mitsubishi as they were a proprietary item.
At that time I made the decision not to invest anymore money into that vehicle and traded it in for a 2008 Mercury Mariner.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:24 pm 
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This morning I was listening to Dave Serio, the host of "You Auto Know", the radio talk show on WCBM AM where people call in about mechanical problems and other issues relating to car maintenance.

One caller asked Dave how often he should change his oil if he only drives his car 3000 mile a year. The caller thought that he should change the oil twice a year or at 1,500 miles but Dave told him that wasn't necessary. He said that you could go a year without changing the oil if you were only driving 3,000 miles or so. He recommended not to go beyond 4,000 miles if you only drive the car sparingly.

Another caller who had a 1998 Saturn with 180,000 miles on it wanted to know if he should change over to a full synthetic oil. Dave recommended that since he wasn't using a synthetic now it would not be of any benefit to switch over to it with the high mileage on the car. He said that the synthetic oil would find any small gaps in the gaskets and start to leak whereas the regular motor oil would not. Had the man started using a full synthetic at around 20,000 miles and continued to do so he would not have that same issue even in a high mileage engine.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:29 pm 

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Dave is a good guy, I used to be a member of SAAC group of MD with him.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:34 am 
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Years ago we used to use Amalie, Pennzoil, and Trop Artic because they were the cheapest on the market in bulk. They sucked because they left a lot of goo in the engine. Now all of these brands have fulll and blend synthetic now and they are most likely pretty reliable or they'd be out of business.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:47 pm 
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A number of years ago, 1997 to 2002, my wife and I had a permanent campsite on the Chester River in Chestertown. The campground was called Duck Neck and we had a 35' Cobra by Salem Travel Trailer that stayed in the same location. The previous owners had built on a screened in room and a porch. We also had a golf cart to travel around the campground and a 16' tri hull runabout boat with a 50 hp Mercury Outboard engine.

I attented the Baltimore Boat Show and listened to a group of oil industry reps talking about engine oils and how they had improved over the years to give added protection to marine engines as well as auto engines. Since my Mercury Outboard was a two cyle engine I had to mix oil with gas but the result was still the same, use only top quality 2 cycle engine oil and not worry about damging the engine. :btu:

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:53 pm 
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Now you have to be concerned about ethanol in two cycles and even tho there has been so much advancements in oils we keep stepping backwards with things like ethanol in the fuel. Just when we get the ethanol under control something else will become the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:12 pm 
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The increased use of ethanol in our fuels is becoming a huge concern. All I know is that the gas we are using in our cars contains ethanol and it is driving our gas mileage down. I realize that the winter blends of fuels contain a lot of additives which are supposed to protect the environment, which I am not sold on, but they have the added problem of giving us less miles to the gallon which means we use more fuel.

My wife bought the Hyundai Sonata thinking that she would get better gas mileage but since the winter blended fuels have come out her mileage and mine too have decreased. She used to get over 26 mpg in all around driving but at her last fillup she got 21.5 mpg with the same type of driving.

It's highly debatable whether these extra additives actually reduce polution but they do produce less performance and lower gas mileage. :banghead2:

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 Post subject: Re: 3,000-mile oil change?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Like Charlie every 5000 miles mine gets chanced with Fords Synblend oil.

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